Planetshakers Insider

Musings on Life, the Christian Journey and being a part of Planetshakers City Church

Planetshakers, and Why We Should Shake-Off Bad Beliefs

with 40 comments

I had someone who didn’t leave their name, but is apparently a Planetshakers member, ask a question recently:

…do you truly believe that this blog contributes any value to the church? If so how?

By asking questions; by being public and open; by engaging people, and getting people to think deeper; by questioning beliefs so that beliefs that are wrong or mistaken can be shed, and beliefs that are correct and stand up to questioning can be strengthened.

All protestant churches (non-Roman-Catholic churches – including Pentecostal churches like Planetshakers) came out of the Reformation – and began with Martin Luther.

The catalyst for the reformation was Martin Luther’s “Ninety-Five Theses” – which he nailed to the Castle Church in Wittenburg, Saxony (modern-day Germany).

These were 95 points for debate that criticized the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope.

The “Theses” included points criticizing practice of selling “indulgences” – the Roman Catholic Church at the time was making people PAY MONEY in order to be forgiven of their sins, and be sanctified in order to gain God’s favor and get into heaven.

You know it’s wrong, I know it’s wrong – but the average person at that time knew no better.

At the time, the Bible was written in Greek – (Martin Luther himself was responsible for the first translation into the “common man’s language”, which put the bible in everyone’s reach). So the church was able to get away with practically anything

Martin Luther, because he understood and was able to interpret the bible, and wasn’t willing to accept a bastardized version of God’s message – a version that benefited the Church financially, but was wrong biblically – so he spoke up.

His work began the reformation – and the reformation saw the Bible being translated into common languages worldwide (including the King James Version in England – which we still use today), it saw some of the greatest Christian philosophers in history (including Calvin and Luther himself), eventually led to most non-Roman-Catholic church movements (Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Anglican, Pentecostal, Revivalist, etc), and saw the church come much closer to the ideals described in the Bible.

This was one of the most influential turning points in world history, let alone Christendom.

And it came because someone spoke up when they saw something was wrong.

People accused Martin Luther of bringing about “disunity” and “dissent” – they made him an outlaw, banned his work, and called him a heretic – someone who was “of the devil”.

And in many ways he did create disunity and dissent – but he also spoke the truth.. And as a result, he did God’s work.

You see, God doesn’t call us to blind unity, for the sake of unity in the body of Christ.

Take Jesus’ example – when he came across the money-changers and herders in the temple, he angrily made a whip of cords, drove out the animals, violently turned over the tables strewing the money all over the ground…

“Take these things away; do not make my Father’s house a house of trade.” 17His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for your house will consume me.”

Jesus acted when he saw wrong.

Martin Luther did the same.

I’m far from anything that Jesus is, and I’m no Martin Luther either – I’m just a human, and I sin as much as the next one.

But I see things that are wrong – and I speak out too.

Just like every Christian should.

Certainly I don’t act as violently as Jesus acted, and certainly not as loudly or as controversially as Martin Luther – but I speak out and act nonetheless.

Is it wrong that I should speak?

Just as one example – In the Bible, Paul writes (in 1 Cor. 14:27-28):

27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

So is it wrong if I were to question whether or not we are justified in God when Senior Pastor Sam Evans speaks in tongues at the end of worship at Planetshakers (with no interpretation), and encourages others to join in?

Is it wrong that I question Planetshakers for claiming they had nothing to do with Mike Guglielmucci for the past 18 months, and distancing themselves from him, when it was clear that his cancer lie started while he was at Planetshakers 22 months prior?

Is it wrong that I look around and see hurting people and people with weak faith, and question what pastoral care these people receive when their small-group leaders aren’t skilled enough to help, don’t recognize the problem, or are too busy to do anything?

Is it wrong to wonder why people cheer loudly when a preacher is “on a roll” in his sermon, or when a superstar preacher’s name is flashed on the giant screens – and wonder whether people’s focus is on Jesus or the Church? And similarly, wonder whether the church is focussed more on growth, or building deep relationships between churchgoers and Jesus?

Planetshakers is a good church – but Planetshakers is not the way, the truth and the life – Jesus is.

So when the church falls short (like we all do) – who questions?

Or are we so blindly following Planetshakers that we forget to follow Jesus?

The most frustrating part is how blindly people will follow – without questioning anything at all.

In fact, some people are willing to go to any extreme – just so long as you don’t disagree, have a different opinion, or question a belief.

  • I can live with people hating me;
  • I can live with people calling me every name they can think of (which is part of the reason why I’m now moderating slanderous posts so heavily);
  • I can live with people signing my email address up to spam email services (it’s started happening lately – I got the opt-in messages to prove it);
  • I can live with people trying to hack into my email account to stop this blog (it’s happened 8 times so far – I’ve got the password reset messages to prove it);
  • I can live with people trying to silence this blog by trying to gain access into the admin panel (it’s happened 5 times so far – again, got the password reset messages…);

But why would a Christian do any of this, instead of just speaking the truth?

I assume that these people are Christians if they are offended by what I might say – but whoever they are, why would they choose to act out of hatred or malice, and want to be slanderous and hurtful and attack me rather than simply disproving me – if I am so obviously wrong in what I might write.

But the surprising (and at times frustrating) part for me is how little some christians seem to want to do anything – just so long as they don’t have to think for themselves.

Even when something is so opposed, so contradictory to what is in the Bible – when the shepherd might be leading them astray – they seem to simply follow.

For unity, perhaps.

  • Perhaps I’m dealing with deep-ingrained and evil spiritual forces that are much greater than me and this blog.
  • Perhaps I’m just encountering Christian zealots who believe what I’m doing is wrong – but don’t have the biblical knowledge to potentially see where I might be right, or if I’m wrong to disprove me.
  • Perhaps they believe that if I’m wrong and evil, acting against me in any way is justified – even if the action they take might be sinful itself.
  • Perhaps their faith is weak, and rather than building their faith on the rock (Jesus) they have built it in Planetshakers – so anything that questions Planetshakers also questions (and shakes) their faith.
  • Perhaps I’m missing something.

I don’t know.

I don’t know what good this blog will do – but surely any sense of accountability, debate, and questioning beliefs in order to find the truth is a good thing, because it means we’re vigilant – and if we’re vigilant (as the Bible says) we avoid being led astray, and we avoid trouble from our enemies.

Surely our faith is strong enough for us to ask questions.

Surely our faith is strong enough that we’re willing to be vigilant, rather than blindly follow a church because… well, just because.

As I said at the start of this post…

Asking questions; being public and open; engaging people, getting people to think deeper; questioning beliefs so that beliefs that are wrong or mistaken can be shed, and beliefs that are correct and stand up to questioning can be strengthened – surely this is good, and not bad.

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40 Responses

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  1. Mate, with you 100%! I hear your passion and I reckon keep doing what you are doing.

    To all those Christians who are just attacking PSI, stop criticizing and get back to what you are actually commissioned to do – proclaiming the word of God and making disciples of all nations. Get off your high horse and question whether your motive is to really see the ‘broken hearts healed’ and the ‘captives set free’. Questioning is good. It refines, challenges, exposes, teaches etc. Instead of condemning those who question, how about examining yourself and being prepared to give an answer for what you believe in.

    Matty

    September 15, 2008 at 7:55 pm

  2. Thanks Matty 🙂

    Planetshakers Insider

    September 15, 2008 at 8:10 pm

  3. Hi PI,

    I agree with some of your comments in this blog entry, such as:

    1. So is it wrong if I were to question whether or not we are justified in God when Senior Pastor Sam Evans speaks in tongues at the end of worship at Planetshakers (with no interpretation), and encourages others to join in?

    2. Is it wrong that I look around and see hurting people and people with weak faith, and question what pastoral care these people receive when their small-group leaders aren’t skilled enough to help, don’t recognize the problem, or are too busy to do anything?

    3. Is it wrong to wonder why people cheer loudly when a preacher is “on a roll” in his sermon, or when a superstar preacher’s name is flashed on the giant screens – and wonder whether people’s focus is on Jesus or the Church? And similarly, wonder whether the church is focussed more on growth, or building deep relationships between churchgoers and Jesus?

    I have seen these things in action myself.

    Praise God your desire is to test all things with the Bible (Acts 17:11; 2 Tim 3:16-17; 1 Thes 5:20-22). Based on this important principle, I’m interested in knowing your thoughts about another issue confronting Planetshakers:

    What are your thoughts regarding Sam Evans (and other women) who preach and teach the entire congregation at Sunday services and at various Planetshakers conferences considering the teaching of 1 Timothy 2:11-3:7?

    I look forward to hearing from you. You can communicate with me via my email.

    Peter T.

    Peter T.

    September 16, 2008 at 7:42 am

  4. Hahaha… PSI, so obvious that was you commenting as (Matty).

    Ed

    September 16, 2008 at 1:13 pm

  5. Ed – actually, it wasn’t.

    If you follow my actions on this blog, you’ll see that I commented in response to “Moses” several minutes before Matty posted at:

    https://planetshakersinsider.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/mike-guglielmucci-in-psychiatric-hospital-police-no-basis-for-charges-secret-accounts-audited-but-not-released/#comment-409

    Then posted another blog post just before 8pm (after Matty’s comment):

    https://planetshakersinsider.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/mike-guglielmucci-questions-answered/

    After I had published, I did some final edits (which I republished), and then saw Matty had commented – and responded at 8:10pm.

    It’s disappointing for me to read your comments.

    These sort of accusations really don’t add to credibility – and it’s disappointing that you would disbelieve any positive commentary on this blog and accuse it of being a sham.

    It’s important to check the times and dates of posts before commenting.

    On another blog post you accused me of being inaccurate and inappropriate because of a comment I made – even though it was clear I raised a concern about an upcoming sermon, rather than commented on something that happened already at a sermon.

    The bible warns us about being quick to anger, and quick to make accusations. It also warns us about bearing false witness.

    It also warns us to be gentle in our rebukes – so I’m happy to remove your comment (above), the previous comment I mentioned, and this comment of rebuke if you’d like.

    You’re already forgiven – but I’m happy to take down these comments for the sake of reputation.

    Let me know.

    Planetshakers Insider

    September 16, 2008 at 5:20 pm

  6. @Peter T

    As I said to you via email – Really insightful comments.

    1 Timothy 2:11-3:7 is very interesting…

    This could become an incredibly controversial issue – and to debate it in any depth I believe could take away from the message of this blog.

    However, there are two points here…

    Firstly, 1 Timothy 2:12 says:

    “12I allow no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to remain in quietness and keep silence [in religious assemblies].”

    This shows it is Paul’s directive, not God’s. While Paul is an apostle and deserves our respect, in this case he is speaking on his own behalf and for the benefit of Timothy and his church, rather than delivering a prophetic word of God.

    He also goes on to say:

    ” 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve;

    14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but [the] woman who was deceived and deluded and fell into transgression.”

    Recently, I’ve heard this debated by some learned scholars – as when God commanded Adam not to eat the fruit from the tree, Eve was not yet yet created. (Genesis 2:17) Eve was aware (Genesis 3:2-3), however Adam was present when God made his commandment known, and still ate – so is it fair to say in 1 Timothy 2:14:

    ” 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but [the] woman who was deceived and deluded and fell into transgression.”

    But that’s getting off-track 😉

    So why does Paul say he does not allow women to speak in church?:

    1 Cor. 14:34-35 – “the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.”

    This raises an interesting issue….

    The average age for a first marriage for Australian women is 28.6.

    Who does a woman submit to prior to this? Particularly assuming that women previously were married in their teens back in Paul’s time. Where does a woman get her teaching, if not from a husband?

    If we prevent women from speaking in the modern-day church, we left with an issue of making sure women receive biblical teaching.

    Jesus had no issues speaking to or answering the questions of women who did not have the same knowledge of God that many might – did not have husbands who could assist them (including gentiles) – and in some cases, DID have husbands and family members who they could defer to.

    So it seems that allowing women a role in the church context, where they can speak, ask questions and be taught, is not a significant issue.

    And as we saw in the case of Mary and Martha, it’s reasonable for women to serve those in ministry.

    The issues therefore are:

    1) Is it reasonable for a woman to be in a position of leadership? If so, over whom?
    2) Is it reasonable for a woman to be in ministry? And if so, should men submit to her authority? And should women?
    3) Who would take over the roles currently filled by women in today’s church?

    Currently, I believe women contribute an incredible amount to the church – and the majority of believers are women – particularly at a church like Planetshakers where at least 2/3rds of all church-goers are women. So if women were to submit, stay silent, and stop acting – who would take over their roles when women already outnumber men?

    Planetshakers Insider

    September 16, 2008 at 5:59 pm

  7. Haha What a joke! You have zero credability yet seem to think you can write what you want about Pastors and people (real people).
    Whats your name again Mr Credible source of information?

    Ed

    September 16, 2008 at 6:03 pm

  8. Hi PSI,

    Paul is an apostle. That means he has been commissioned by God to lay down the foundation of the Christian faith (Ephesians 2:18-22 etc.). Whether Paul writes “God said” or “I say” is irrelevant; both are instructive for the entire church, since God has commissioned him as an apostle. If Paul’s statement in 1 Timothy 2:12 is not authoritative simply because he said “I do not”, then there would be hundreds of verses in the New Testament that wouldn’t apply to us (e.g. 1 Peter 5:1; 1 John 2:12). That’s crazy!

    Also, Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:8 that he desires “in every place” these things be done. So he’s not just referring to one church, but to the entire Christian church.

    Also, Paul states that the reason a woman is not to pastor a church containing men is because God created Adam first (showing that men are the leaders), and that Eve sinned first (showing that women are more not created as primary spiritual leaaders), 1 Timothy 2:13-14. It sounds politically incorrect, but God is not interested in policital correctness. He’s interested in holiness. Paul appeals to God’s written account of creation, not to his own ideas to show that women cannot pastor a church of men.

    And the apostle Paul doesn’t stop there. He continues in the following chapter – 1 Timothy 3:1-7 to show who can be a pastor/overseer. This entire passage shows that a pastor/overseer can only be male. This is also shown in Titus 1:5-9 and other passages.

    This is an important issue, because many problems are created in churches (Planetshakers included) because the wrong people are in leadership – e.g. women. Others who should not be in leadership are those who are not blameless – e.g. Michael Guglielmucci (as you have shown in various blog entries).

    You have already pointed out that God has set guidelines for speaking in tongues – no more than 3 in one service and each must be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). Likewise, God has set guidelines for pastors – they must be male.

    There is no other prohibition on women in ministry. God allows them to do pretty much anything, except teach/lead men, since leadership is the role of a man – in marriage and in the church. For further reading I recommend “Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood” by Piper/Grudem and “Biblical Eldership” by Alexander Strauch.

    You ask a good question: “Who would take over their roles when women already outnumber men?” Well, let’s see the true men of God stand up and do what God has called them to do, rather than be lazy as so many men are!

    The point I’m trying to make here is that Planetshakers has many deep-seated problems. You have listed several in this blog which I agree with. But I believe there are more. Women in leadership is one of them. There are others….

    Thanks,

    Peter T.

    Peter T

    September 17, 2008 at 8:49 am

  9. Sometimes i think it is the easier option to criticise and devalue what God’s doing instead of getting involved… i love God’s house so much and this blog really disappoints me… like are you really suggesting women shouldn’t be allowed to preach/lead in God’s house?

    Daniel

    September 23, 2008 at 6:00 pm

  10. Hey PSI, we need more people like you 🙂 Don’t get me wrong, I’m not here to discredit christianity. I’m a believer myself. In fact, I come from a church as big as PS.

    Anyhow, I’ve always wondered why don’t you reveal your real identity?

    kinsan

    September 23, 2008 at 6:59 pm

  11. love that most of my comments – in fact all – havent amde it on here yet you’re happy to have any positive comment on here.. kinda goes against what you’re claiming to stand for yeah??

    Daniel

    September 23, 2008 at 9:21 pm

  12. @Kinsan – Thanks for your great feedback 🙂

    “Anyhow, I’ve always wondered why don’t you reveal your real identity?”

    Originally it was because of two sermons preached by Ps Russell Evans where he spoke out very strongly against criticizing PlanetShakers – quite literally saying “The vision for this church was given to me by God. If you don’t like what’s being done, find another church or get your own anointing and start your own church… I’ve even asked people to leave the church before.”

    This seemed very clear.

    I like Planetshakers enough not to want to get booted out 😉

    Ps Ben Fewster has since emailed me via the email address published on this blog, and said:

    “…it is not the spirit our church to publicly disgrace anybody or dismiss them from our church…”

    So potentially my original concern with revealing my personal identity has been addressed.

    I’m still very cautious, and still have to weigh up what level of ability I would have to be independent and an “insider” if I could by singled-out by individual church members or leadership and treated differently.

    The blog isn’t about me personally – or what I write. Much of what is published has been written by others, and the true value in the blog is in the comments…

    …And I don’t expect commenters to reveal their identities either – we start getting into tricky territory after that point 😉

    There’s a level of independence and ability to report truthfully that comes from not saying my name. And while the spirit of this blog is to ask questions, and provoke thoughtful debate, and nobody is compelled to leave their names, I don’t think it’s necessarily relevant to reveal any names at all.

    @Daniel – Your comments were in moderation. First-time contributers need to be checked for spam, hateful remarks, and anything else that might detract from the integrity of the blog.

    I don’t check the blog constantly – just frequently – so that’s why there was a delay 😉

    (Kinsan’s comment was also moderated – as has every other commenter here.)

    I assume it was you who commented earlier in this thread (also “Daniel” here?).

    I believe women contribute a massive amount in the church – but Peter T raises some scripture that is very difficult to refute earlier in this thread.

    I like having women pastors / leaders at times, and think many do a great job – but I haven’t found anything in scripture that does anything less than confirm Peter T’s scripture from the apostle Paul.

    I’ve spent hours studying it too, because deep down inside something in me screams “women do great things in the church – leave them be” – but I can’t find anything.

    Perhaps it’s just me though. Perhaps you could help me with a well thought out and biblically correct response to Peter T?

    Planetshakers Insider

    September 24, 2008 at 2:16 am

  13. Hey PSI,

    the difference between you and jesus or martin Luther is that if you really do have that conviction, why are you not willing ot own it.

    Neither of them hid behind anonymity.

    and to be honest, the “i’m afraid Planetshakers will kick me out” thing just seems weak.

    my theory is, if the church is really that bad and they would kick me out for spekaing the truth with a good heart and spirit, then i’m happy to own what i say and let the chips fall where they may.

    in the end, it’s about your integrity before God, not man. and if you want ot be loooking to jesus only, as you say, then don;t worry about what man says. own your stuff and either sign your name to it or go and talk to them about it.

    that’s what jesus would do … and obviously Martin Luther too.

    a

    Alex

    September 25, 2008 at 11:27 pm

  14. Hi Alex,

    I’m not sure if you missed my previous comment or not.

    I ask because the third paragraph of (and thrust of) your most recent comment is “and to be honest, the ‘i’m afraid Planetshakers will kick me out’ thing just seems weak.” – this seem misplaced in the context of my previous comment in this thread here.

    The 3rd to the 12th paragraphs of my comment specifically address this.

    PSI

    Planetshakers Insider

    September 26, 2008 at 12:04 am

  15. 1st: Noone should ever reveal their ID online, this is nothing new.
    2nd: Its quite clear that PSI faced some unnecessary nasty actions from opposer’s, and its ridiculous to expect the posting of RL names considering the actions some pple have already taken.

    Personally, I don’t see the problem with it at all, and I feel those who are using this point to argue PSI’s intentions, are simply grasping at straws in a desperate effort to undermine this blog.

    This is the interwebz, PSI has as much right to blog about this as anyone else has the right to praise or condemn planetshakers, Christianity or any other church.

    After all, didn’t our God not only give us a mind, but also free will, so that we choose Him out of love?
    This also covers discussion and the responsibility to speak up about things u see that are wrong, neglectful or inappropriate, be it in the church or outside of it.

    Lets just call a spade a spade…it is irresponsible to preach one thing and do another, to feign constant improvement in all areas,it is neglectful to ignore the needs of the most vulnerable because they are ‘too difficult’.
    What, b/c this is in church its excusable? or should be hushed up? lol

    PSI it seems you have touched a taboo subject 😛

    Mice

    September 26, 2008 at 7:28 am

  16. Hey Mice,

    some of your points are valid, just misplaced …

    it’s not about PSI’s right ot blog. I don;t dispute that. my issue is that this is not a bilblical way to resolve any of the issues raised. i challeng you to give me the scripture reference that says you should snipe in the background.

    God is very clear that if you have an iussue with someone, you are to take it to them. if they don;t listen to you, that’s not your fault. in fact, if you are persecuted for it, the bible says you will be blessed if you are standing up for righteousness.

    my issue is that PSI claims to be simply shining the light on the problem. but ot do so without claiming your own work is ungodly. we were calle dinto right relationship with one another and part of that means being able to say thing s to people honestly and up front.

    htere have been times in church life when i hae been rejected by people (leaders, and not) for saying the truth about certain situations. So what? they will be accountable to God for that, not me. i did the best i could and have a clear conscience about my dealings with them. that’s alll i need. Becasue i approcahed it in a bibloical way.

    no-one’s asking PSI to Hush up or not say what he’s saying, just to back it up with the guts and maturity that the bible requires of us to be honest about it.

    whatever you say, you will be hard pressed to find any scripture that justifies this kind of activity. and if PSI is running around telling people to be biblical in their leadership, shouldn;t he be biblical in his interactions? Shouldn;t he place himself under accountability? shouldn;t he go to his brother? God doesn;t tell us to only do so if we think we will be recieved well.

    And as for the claim that:
    “I’m still very cautious, and still have to weigh up what level of ability I would have to be independent and an “insider” if I could by singled-out by individual church members or leadership and treated differently.”

    that’s just an excuse. you would no longer be independant?? what is that? Jesus didn’t say “Go to your brother unless it compromises your independence.” Let me spell it out for you … G-O T-O Y-O-U-R B-R-O-T-H-E-R! If they don;t receive you, don;t let your insecurity as to what they may think of you or treat you dictate your lack of indepence. it’s either the truth or not … and if it is, then speak it regardless of your insecurity as to what people might htink.

    Mice, all i’m saying to PSI is … Be biblical, don’t just talk about it. As you said, “it is irresponsible to preach one thing and do another”.

    Alex

    September 26, 2008 at 5:23 pm

  17. I don’t think you really understand what has been going on in this blog alex.

    Many pple here have bought various related issues to leadership, who have not known what to do.
    Finally someone is talking about it not ignoring it.
    There has been much gossip in the church about this blog, and a tremendous lack of any understanding-which sadly is the norm.

    You can wave the bible as much as u like at myself and others on this blog, but ur legalism does nothing to actually resolve or support anyone or any of the issues raised.

    I don’t know how much u understand about ‘issue raising’ ’empowerment’ ‘change’ ‘leadership’ or the associated, but the first thing in all of these is having the ears to hear.
    If you dont comprehend what is taking place, then no matter how hard u try, nothing will change, and there is a real risk of causing damage to pple in the process

    This is a strong well rooted factor in our church and many others, questioning motives and leaders is natural, esp after MG. Further more, dealing with the damage caused, begins with questions.

    Planetshakers leaders offered support to the congregation when this made news, but when it entails dealing with the tough stuff, they have pointed the finger.
    This blog is part of the ‘tough-stuff’, and how has the church responded?
    They cant deal with it, and if they wont then pple will find their own way to seek answers.

    Personally I find it pretty sad that I can find more support and understanding combined with healthy discussion online than in my church.

    Anyways, I receive much from this blog; and I feel its is assisting me personally with the fall-out from MG and the related issues.

    Mice

    September 27, 2008 at 9:23 pm

  18. Mice.

    There is a clear distinction between giving people the opportunity to raise their concerns and questions before leadership and what is happening here in this blog. If the aim of this was to bring genuine problems to the attention of Planetshakers leadership it would be an open discussion with Planetshakers leadership being an integral part of the process. What is happening here is simply a means for PSI to air his frustrations with Planetshakers in a sensationalistic environment and encourage others to join in with their own gripes and hearsay. Look at the fruit that this blog is bringing; it is growing sourer and more negative by the post. Your posts included. I am all for leadership being held accountable and being asked the hard questions but there is a right way and a wrong way to do it and this is clearly the wrong way. I now have multiple posts on here explaining this in greater depth so I am not going to go into it again here.

    You say that you feel this blog has helped you personally. Can I ask you to evaluate this by honestly asking your self two simple questions?

    Has being part of this blog helped you to feel more connected and supportive of you church? e.g. a greater feeling of connectedness and desire to be involved on a greater level.

    Has it caused you to feel like you have been heard by someone, which makes you feel good temporarily but it has essentially made you feel more frustrated with your church?

    Your answers to these questions will reveal the basic fruit that this blog is bearing in your own life.

    Justin

    September 29, 2008 at 10:00 am

  19. Justin,

    I really hear where you are coming from and in many respects I agree with you.

    I agree that there is a right way and a wrong way to question leadership- but what if the right way is not made available?

    “if the aim of this was to bring genuine problems to the attention of Planetshakers leadership it would be an open discussion with Planetshakers leadership being an integral part of the process.”

    There is nothing stopping Planetshakers leadership from posting a comment here inviting people to come talk to them instead. But they have remained silent, choosing to ignore it instead. And thats what seems to have made people upset in the first place – that issues are not dealt with (that is my impression at least).

    If this blog WAS just a whine I could understand Planetshakers choosing to attempt to deal with it privately. But its not – PSI makes a LOT of good points.

    For me, a lot of the things raised on the blog have been issues I have wondered (and asked) about for a while, but with no answers. If Planetshakers did address the issues raised here – even to say ‘yes, it is something we will look into’ – it would restore my faith in and support of the Church.

    I don’t know – I just don’t think it is as ‘black and white’ as you have made it.

    Grace

    September 29, 2008 at 12:17 pm

  20. Hey Justin,

    I know you mean well, but I felt the need to address some of the points you made.

    “If the aim of this was to bring genuine problems to the attention of Planetshakers leadership it would be an open discussion with Planetshakers leadership being an integral part of the process.”

    As far as I understand, this blog has been about discussing various issues amongst like minded pple…the fact that those who come here have also experienced problems with approaching and or discussing such issues with leadership is simply a common experience.
    It has been a point of discussion – as it should be, but to suggest it is the focus or reason of the blog is quite ignorant.

    Commenting on your ‘questions’ I would first like to say that you or anyone cannot question anothers method for resolution of issues they may have, as long as it is not causing direct harm to themselves or others.
    Who are you to say blogging/posting about this is wrong?
    Everyone has different methods of resolving things, some write, some paint, some play sport, some talk, and no one has the right to say it is wrong or unfruitful.

    Lets just consider the fruit for a moment:

    * Resolving issues in a healthy way that still upholds God in our lives, builds faith and supports our church involvement;
    * Healthy discussion of long standing questions bought to a head via the MG disclosure
    * Peer support and accountability if dialogue deviates from being honest, helpful and supportive.

    As you can see from some quick notes, this blog does hold value that comes from a genuine intention.

    Now for your questions, which I feel are misplaced and come from a lack of understanding, but I will answer because it seems you have asked them from a well meaning place.

    “Has being part of this blog helped you to feel more connected and supportive of you church? e.g. a greater feeling of connectedness and desire to be involved on a greater level.”
    1. Yes it has, and it has assisted with broader inter-related uncertainties also.
    2. ‘A greater feeling of connectedness and desire to be involved in a greater level’ is quite irrelevant for me; as I rely on God to develop this in my life, and He has done so since the first time I went to planetshakers.
    Btw, your ‘eg’ failed to leave room for those who do not equate fruit with ‘greater church involvement’ not because they are rebellious, but because of who they are.

    Has it caused you to feel like you have been heard by someone, which makes you feel good temporarily but it has essentially made you feel more frustrated with your church?”

    Firstly Justin, being heard is the first most important step in resolution of issues,problems and questions.
    Yas it is temporary by nature, it is a process beginning with being heard.
    Having your voice heard is where empowerment begins, and its effects flow through.

    I don’t feel more frustrated with my church, quite the contrary, discussing any frustration or confusion with the inter-personal side of my church that I have experienced, has aided my resolution of these things.
    Which is the point I have been making.

    I don’t expect you to understand, as by your comments I feel you have not experienced similar things; there is nothing wrong with that, but empathy and a genuine attempt to put yourselves in the shoes of those you are questioning will open a deeper perception for you to base your questions on.

    To be honest, it is this approach that I personally have the most frustration with, and I struggle to be diplomatic when trying to explain-from square one- the basics of therapeutic inter-personal discussion.
    For me it equates to trying to explain for the first time why discrimination is not acceptable.
    Its frustrating 😛

    This ignorance is wide spread within church communities and really, there is nothing wrong with it, while it isn’t directly impacting others negatively and the appropriate resources are available to assist pple’s development and growth.
    it does however become a problem when it is ignored or accepted as normal, absent of growth and development.

    I also find it interesting that the majority of posters here have not been deliberately negative towards our church, yet have at times, been met by negativity from our church.

    Mice

    September 29, 2008 at 12:41 pm

  21. Mice.

    You say that the majority of posters have not been deliberately negative towards your church. Have a quick scan through the titles of almost every one of the posts here. This is a Blog that IS negative towards your church. If posters are in here “sharing their concerns” or telling PSI “what a great person they are, keep it up” then they are being negative towards your church.

    As for the fact that you do not believe that I have the experience to know what I am talking about. Really you could not be much further from the truth. I have said elsewhere my church has endured two major failings of leadership in the last few years. In both cases I was very involved in differing capacities and in both cases I have had to council people through the aftermath. In one case I actually approached the person involved about what was happening which in turn lead to their confession. Not because I heard or saw anything but because I genuinely felt something was wrong. As for being ignorant… If I was ignorant would I call someone on the possibility there could be something really wrong going on in their life? If I was ignorant would I be one of the few here who have the guts to speak up about what we can see happening. You decide, but don’t underestimate the people who you could possibly be dialoguing with here.

    You are right when you say that the first step in resolution is being heard but the part that you are missing is that you have to be heard by the right people. If you had a problem with your car you aren’t going to get any closer to fixing the problem if you speak to a carpenter. It is the same here. You are not going to effectively get your message across to a church leadership by spitting out your offences with the church on the WWW. Go to them and talk about it.

    My beef with this Blog is not that there are people out there that are hurting. I know they are out there hurting. I know that they feel like they can’t talk to anyone about it but the truth is that I am sure they could easily get help if they went to their leadership. It is sites like this that are out there promoting the fact that nobody listens in Planetshakers that are causing this belief system to gather momentum. PSI said themselves the other day that they were speaking to senior leadership within Planetshaker and what did they do with the opportunity. Did they seek help, support, did they use the opportunity to share some of the concerns that they have. The same concerns that they supposedly created this blog so that they could bring them to Planetshakers attention. I don’t know. The only bit of information that came out of the opportunity was this.

    “OK – I heard it for myself today from one of the senior pastoral team.

    Senior leadership at Planetshakers suspected something was wrong with Mike Guglielmucci long before he left the church.

    He didn’t fool everyone – just those who should have acted didn’t.”

    This is supposedly coming from someone who loves Planetshakers and wants to see genuine change for the better come to the church. Sorry but I do have to say this. WHAT A LOAD OF GARBAGE. They have the opportunity to speak to “senior leadership” the very people who can bring about the change that they supposedly want and they come back with a bit of sensationalistic gossip that they can plaster across their Blog. But wait there is more. They have spoken to leadership who they do genuinely want to communicate with to help improve the church and if they have spoken to leadership about what they claim they to talk about here we are 5 days later and still no new post entitled “PSI AND PLANETSHAKERS NEGOTIATE NEW CHURCH CULTURE. Just another piece of juicy gossip to share with their waiting followers that they managed to have online in a matter of hours.
    Then you say that if Planetshakers leadership really wanted to listen to people they could come here. What, so that you could all line up and throw your little pile of stones at them!

    I am going to make a very strong statement in closing. You can take it or leave it I really don’t care because it is out of my hands. It is mainly for PSI but you too Mice and every other Planetshakers member who finds comfort here.

    PSI. If you really love Planetshakers and want to see change come.

    This blog will NEVER see that change come to pass.

    The only way that you will see real positive change come to Planetshakers or closure for your own issues is if you get off your office chairs and start talking to the right people face to face. Quit making excuses and cowering behind your computer screens and do something real about it.

    Justin

    September 29, 2008 at 2:55 pm

  22. Grace.

    Thanks for responding.

    All I can really say to you on this one is go to your leadership. It really is the best thing you could do. I know that there are plenty of people out there who are saying that leadership don’t want to know about it but I suspect that most of them have not tried and are simply repeating what they have heard in places like this and the ones that have may have gone in with the wrong attitude. Who knows it is just their word at this stage.

    Why don’t you become the first crash test dummy (no insult intended) on here and try to speak to your leadership for yourself. So far there has not been anyone who has been able to say that “I made an appointment with leadership to try and work through some of the issues that I have at the moment and went to them with a receptive spirit and was told to suck it up.” There have been plenty of people saying leadership doesn’t listen but no one has said they have actually tried it.

    If I am wrong then I will be surprised but you never know until you try it.

    Your other point is that “what if the right way is not made available?” Leadership is a finite resource, put simply there are only so many of us and we cannot be everywhere and see everyone’s issues. We rely on people having the confidence to come to us at times of need so that we can help them through their issues. Yes, at times like these we know that there are many people out there who need help but identifying people with a need in a crowd of 4000 like Planetshakers is near impossible. Everyone’s need is also different so we cannot put on a sermon to do group therapy so to speak. It really is a one on one or very close small group environment where everyone in the group is able to be vulnerable that is needed. It can take time but I guarantee that it is worth it.

    Justin

    September 29, 2008 at 3:32 pm

  23. Justin, your still pushing your point that this blog is about changing leadership rather than discussion and support for like minded people.
    Its seems you have been hooked by the aspects on here that mentioned the difficulties of approaching leaders, and totally sidelined everything else.
    And you wonder why I assumed you don’t have broad experience after such statements and narrow questioning.

    Look I don’t particularly want to argue with you over bringing things up with leadership.
    It is a 2 way street, and when only one side is open to dialogue, then there are problems – regardless of who it is that is closed off.
    My reasons for posting here are to voice my questions, comment on others and resolve my confusion and issues with my church-in a personal and confidential way; not everyone here wants to bash the church and leadership.
    If I’m not comfortable going to leaders or trusting them, then I shouldn’t be condemned for posting here and branded a gossip that follows PSI like a sheep.

    Btw my reasons for not trusting them are valid, and there has not been an improvement in the way leaders conduct themselves to enable a trust to grow.
    I have learned to accept this, and although it would be nice if it wasn’t the case, they are not my only option for ministry and discipleship.

    Have a look around, your not the only poster that is encouraging others to go to their leaders.
    I sure see it, get the message and have acted on it.
    But this still does not cover the support required from people in positions of leadership so individuals can actively do this.
    Its one thing to enter discussion with leaders over certain things, its entirely another to receive support during the process of reconciling and resolving any problems.

    Just remember what it was that this blog came out of, and the wide ranging impact of having MG go unchecked in our church.
    These are long standing issues that require long term attention, not just something that can be sorted out by having a chat with leadership.
    Furthermore, an attitude of consistent improvement demonstrates that the church not only understands what has occurred but also their commitment for change.

    I hope you will be able to see that this blog is beneficial for some, not just a gossip site or a place to whine about leadership/church problems.
    Perhaps then, you may be able to imagine what some pple have experienced, and refrain from condemning them for posting here.

    Mice

    September 29, 2008 at 4:56 pm

  24. Hey Justin,

    That is a good point – there has only been a couple of instances on this blog where people have actually gone to the church with issues.

    Last week I wrote to Planetshakers regarding the Beautiful women conference – BEFORE I posted, so I went to them first 🙂 – after seeing the promotional video. The email pretty much said I was disappointed with the video and asked whether there was more to it than my interpretation. No reply yet but as you suggested going and talking to them personally I thought I would share.

    With leadership being a finite resource – I get that too. With Planetshakers though it seems like they have not put the resources in to deal with the 4000. However as you point out I ought to take this issue to them.

    Grace

    September 29, 2008 at 6:34 pm

  25. Mice.

    Everything in life has a foundation. Our beliefs, our thoughts, our actions are all influenced by the spiritual foundation that we are building our lives on. The difference between spiritual foundations and those in the natural (buildings ect) are that we can chose to pick up our own and move them. Often it’s not a great move and can have serious repercussions but that is the flip side of free will.

    That is what I am talking about here. Go right back to the start of this Blog to the “Why this Blog” post. You actually posted on it. PSI clearly states amongst other things.

    “So it’s because I like Planetshakers, I want to remain at the church, but I want to see positive improvements to church culture, that I’ve taken my musings online.”

    The foundation that this blog was built upon was one to see positive change come to the church. The problem that I have is that it is obvious that this is no longer the case. PSI has moved the foundations of this blog away from seeking positive change to one of a sensationalist tabloid site dressed up in a bit of spiritual mumbo jumbo. To quote a recent well known political statement, “You can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig”.

    Mice, you and I will probably never see eye to eye on any of this. In a way we are looking at this from two very different perspectives. I understand that right now you see it as a great opportunity to share and discuss with like minded people and that is fair enough. I am looking at this with the benefit of hindsight and the experience of walking through similar situations and dealing with the aftermath. Sure my circumstance has not been plastered all over the internet but at a local church level it was as, if not more devastating than the MG incident. The one thing that they have in common though is that what started out as likeminded people getting together to share and discuss turned into something far worse.

    The reason that I have voiced my concerns so strongly here is not in the hope of changing the mindsets of people who have already decided their direction on the matter. Believe me I know that no matter what I say here it will not penetrate the heart of an offended person who does not want to hear it.

    My hearts desire is to provide some balanced views to those who are looking at this site and genuinely seeking to find help and answers to the struggles that they will be encountering as they walk through their own personal fallout from the MG incident and help the Planetshakers members who are looking for the right way to be helped through their struggle but don’t really know where to start.

    No hurting person is going to receive the level of pastoral care that they need to deal with these issues on an online blog. Its like asking the checkout assistant at you local Coles to diagnose a brain tumor. It simply doesn’t work.

    Justin

    September 30, 2008 at 9:23 am

  26. “No hurting person is going to receive the level of pastoral care that they need to deal with these issues on an online blog. Its like asking the checkout assistant at you local Coles to diagnose a brain tumor. It simply doesn’t work”

    lulz, and the leadership is equiped is it?
    If your not with them your against them?
    Dependency or perish?

    It may come as a surprise, but PS leadership are not the only only option.

    Mice

    October 5, 2008 at 8:13 pm

  27. I think the fundamental issue, Mice, is that people from outside of Planetshakers don’t understand why it was more productive to take this discussion online.

    I don’t think they really empathizes with people in situations like yours, Grace’s, mine, Amanda, and other Planetshakers’ who have written here.

    They would prefer to see only part of the story through their own rose-coloured glasses – that we’re part of some subversive statistical sample of people who will act in a way that some don’t like.

    I think their minds are already made up, we’ve already been judged, and that they’re not really listening to what you may or may not say.

    You’re right about pastoral care at Planetshakers – it’s largely non-existent. I agree with you here, even more so based on my recent experience.

    Getting to speak to someone in leadership at Planetshakers is hard enough. And to raise an issue with them in private gets you “handled”, “quelled”, silenced, asked not to speak about it in public (as has happened to me over the past few weeks in dealing directly with Planetshakers leadership).

    The focus is on protecting image rather than dealing with any issue.

    I think this is the thrust of where some critics of this blog come from too – they’re protecting the brand, and burning the people whenever they stand in the way of the brand.

    Some see this blog as being damaging to the image of the church, rather than a place for activism, a catalyst of change, and a place where people can discuss concerns without being “handled” or “silenced”.

    Church was never meant to be about the brand. Church is about the people.

    This is something that critics of people here seem to overlook – that they’re dealing with actual people. And unless you’re building the church brand or image, you’re a target to be ruthlessly and mercilessly attacked.

    I would hope that people would be a little more empathetic towards you, a little less quick to preach and judge before they’ve at least listened to you.

    We ask a lot of questions here, but some would prefer to preach first and ask questions later 😉

    In Justin’s case, I can completely appreciate that he’s come from a church that has dealt with a significant and painful issue in the past. And he’s likely speaking from experience in some issues.

    But the reason it comes across as sermonistic Christian leadership psychobabble is because he doesn’t really empathize or understand what’s going on.

    Again, he’s prefer to preach first, ask questions later – he’s made his mind up about who we are, what we’re doing, what’s wrong with us, and why we should stop doing what we’re doing because in his eyes, we’re the same people that split from his church.

    The problem is, we’re not the same people who split from his church. The issue isn’t a bunch of people hurt by the infidelity of some leader or whatever happened in his church in Brisbane..

    The issue is poor church leadership within OUR church in Melbourne.

    …a stream of poor decisions, a lack of discernment and accountability, a lack of visibility of church leaders, a lack of any pastoral care for those who need it the most (some of whom are here already)…

    Mike Guglielmucci is the tip of the iceberg.

    But Justin’s motives (although noble) are misapplied to this blog.

    Justin’s been hurt and offended in the past – and as a result, he immediately saw this blog through the eyes of that past offense.

    He wants to change everyone’s mind here so that their beliefs match his in his offense, and his posts show a theme where he’s unwilling to even empathize with you if you share a different view – he just can’t hear it.

    “speak with leadership”, “get pastoral care” and “don’t speak to others about your problems – just leadership”.

    Over the past few months, I HAVE been speaking with leadership – who consistently ask me not to speak to others about the issues I have raised – which has been obeyed to date.

    But apart from getting me not to talk to others about, or write about, the specifics of issues I have discussed with them – what has happened?

    Working in advertising, we call this “brand management”.

    It’s not dealing with an issue. It’s not pastoral care.

    My point is that I would hope that some are able to see through their past and look at a very distinct, different set of issues – rather than applying the discrimination and judgement of past situations to current and different situations – be more empathetic of others, and less quick to judge.

    Planetshakers Insider

    October 5, 2008 at 11:49 pm

  28. Thnx PSI.
    I hope the recognition of the value of your blog increases over time.
    As you said, we have seen only the tip of the ice-burg, and lasting change will take time, as it should.

    Also, I should have been more empathetic towards Justin’s position, rather than defending my own ‘point’.
    A nice lesson in hypocrisy 😉

    Mice

    October 6, 2008 at 9:09 am

  29. What a beautiful picture you paint here. You have PSI and their band of starved warriors going up against evil forces of the big bad psychopathic religious zealot (oh and don’t forget offended 😉 ) Justin. It is so beautiful in fact that it has had me in stitches of laughter all day. Maybe you should base an add around it.

    PSI. In psychology and counseling what you have just done here is called framing. It is when you place a frame around a person or circumstance that affects the way you see them. The problems with framing is that they can be hugely flawed and frames are dictated by a persons own emotions and feelings. So when you point out that someone (in this case, me) is offended without really knowing what you are saying it is in fact a reflection of what is in your own heart and what you see through your own offence coloured glasses. It is a typical, very common uncreative human reaction to confrontation.

    Another characteristic that you have displayed here in response to confrontation is that of “Fight or Flight”. As humans we basically have two different ways of reacting. One is to fight, which is what you display, the other is to flight or run away. Neither is wrong or bad because that is how we have been created to be, it is just how God made us. Both have flaws and both have the ability to get us into more trouble than we are already in or on the flipside get us out of it.

    Fight works something like this. First you evaluate your opponent to decide if you can take them on or not. If you feel you can’t you have three choices. You can flight, you can bluff or you can call for help. PSI, what you have done here is a combination of bluff and call for help. It is typical of someone who is in over their heads to try and bluff by attempting to use intimidation while at the same time subtlety calling their cronies to arms by not speaking directly to the person but directing their conversation towards their mates. This method can be effective but can also create bigger headaches if the other person does not fall for the bluff.

    You see I am using the same principle of fight right back at you now. The difference is that I am fully aware of what I am doing and saying and have full confidence in the fact that I can back myself. I am also using the intimidation tactic to show the same thing. Sure some of your little warrior mates are going to cower behind you but they won’t stand for long because they have little conviction in what they are saying. Its easy to be brave while you are sitting behind your computer.

    Here is the breakdown. I know that you want me to go away and that your attempts at fighting me have been in hope of intimidating me into silence. I know that you want to have free reign here to say what you want to say and bag who you want to bag. Basically I really don’t care if that is what you want to do, just don’t do it under the guise of doing it out of love for Planetshakers because you and I both know that it has little to do with it anymore. I have little doubt that at the start you did want to see positive change come to your church but right now this has become not much more than your own little soap box for the purpose of creating as much attention as possible for your own cause and pride. You have avoided answering any of the questions I or anyone else who dares to question your motives has asked. (Signs of flight right there).

    So here is my ultimatum. Go away and genuinely evaluate your heart motive and test it before God. If you honestly decide that your heart is totally pure in what you write and have written here then that’s great. I will still be here to question you and others on what they are writing and that should not be a problem because your heart is pure and open to questioning. If you realize that this is not being done for Gods glory or the benefit of planetshakers and you want to continue with it then make it clear that this is not a blog designed to “see positive change come to Planetshakers” and is a blog about your own frustrations. If you do this I will go away. You know the other option.

    PSI. This is not something to be taken lightly. You WILL have to answer for everything that you have written and allowed to be written here in the same way that I will have to answer for what I write here if my motives are not right. That is why I test my heart on what I post. I would rather take a bit of a pride fall here before man than have to answer for my wrong motives before God.

    Your call.

    Justin

    October 6, 2008 at 2:45 pm

  30. Hi again.

    So after spending the last half hour in prayer I feel strongly that God is saying that it is time for me to take my hands off of this and leave it with him. So PSI no matter what decision you come to in regards to where your heart is in this I will not be taking any further part. But please for your own sake as well as the influence that you have on others here, make sure that you have tested the things that you write here before God. What I have written here to date still stands. This is simply a case of hearing from and being obeadient to what God is calling me to do. In the natural I would love to have hung around but at the end of the day. God knows best and that is the benefit of walking with him.

    God Bless.

    Justin.

    Justin

    October 6, 2008 at 3:24 pm

  31. Hi Justin,

    Thanks for your comments here.

    While I disagree with MOST of what you have said here, you’re welcome to return and comment at any time.

    (How does the saying go – “I don’t like what you have to say, but I’ll fight to the death for your right to say it”.)

    I’m mainly sad that while you saw hurting people, you didn’t seek to understand them but rather battled them.

    I’m also sad that your parting words are accusational barbs, accusing others (including myself) of saying things that you have said to others – personally I’ll get over this though.

    But as I say – the doors here left open, and while few agreed with what you have said to date, you’re welcome to voice your opinions in the future.

    God bless,

    PSI

    Planetshakers Insider

    October 6, 2008 at 7:06 pm

  32. There are a few loose ends in Justin’s last post that I wanted to address.

    I have little doubt that at the start you did want to see positive change come to your church…

    Justin – On the 25th of August 2008, you commented on this blog for the first time – just 3 days after the blog began.

    The second paragraph of your comment begins:

    I have to say that I agree with Vic and Alister and have to question the heart motive behind this blog…

    I fail to understand how you could have so clearly questioned my motives then, and now claim that you had little doubt that at the start I wanted to see positive change come to my church.

    You go onto say:

    You have avoided answering any of the questions I or anyone else who dares to question your motives has asked.

    I think there are VERY FEW I haven’t answered.

    This very blog post (the one you visited to comment on 6 times) BEGINS by addressing the questions of a critic of this blog.

    And there are several commenters here who made critical remarks – and all have been addressed.

    But these examples aren’t the only ones…

    Looking at all recent posts on this blog, all questions directed at me have been addressed previously, in detail, and very specifically.

    In the most recent 5 posts on this blog, there are 3 examples of people asking me questions directly – and all were responded to:

    https://planetshakersinsider.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/characteristics-of-leaders-do-planetshakers-leaders-shape-up/

    https://planetshakersinsider.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/mike-guglielmucci-in-psychiatric-hospital-police-no-basis-for-charges-secret-accounts-audited-but-not-released/

    https://planetshakersinsider.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/planetshakers-and-why-we-should-shake-off-bad-beliefs/

    If you’re talking about questions that you asked specifically, I don’t see any unanswered ones (you’re welcome to point out any though).

    In this thread, you have posted 6 comments that included 4 questions – all of which were directed at Mice – and Mice answered each one of them.

    To give this context, it’s 4 questions within 6 comments that are a total of 3,024 words long. That’s a lot of criticism, judgement and preaching to wade through – and kudos to Mice for not just skimming through them but actually responding in detail.

    Mice – although you’re not in a position of leadership at a big AOG church, you’ve done well by taking on-board all points, considering them, agreeing with reasonable points, and responding thoughtfully. You have my love (as do other posters here, like Grace, Alex, and Peter T who did likewise)

    PSI

    Planetshakers Insider

    October 6, 2008 at 8:13 pm

  33. Awww thnx PSI, back to u ❤

    Keep up the good work 😉

    Mice

    October 7, 2008 at 12:30 pm

  34. we should make the inmates from Guantanomo Bay join Planetshakers and then give the coordinates of the pathetic group of junkies to the Taliban so the Taliban can blow-up un unwanted disease on human civilization (that is the few thousand confused and hateful teens that are members of Planetshakers). It would be a win-win situation and everyone is happy (as would probably the teens as they get to meet death they are always dreaming about and they maybe get to be closer to Jesus too).

    mIKE

    October 12, 2009 at 2:40 pm

  35. you (crazy drug-addicted) teenagers that are members of Planetshakers better dare not attempt to expand beyond Australia’s soapy polluted waters into the world’s great countries or it will be seen to it that Australia be completely issolated (once all the great goods that have been brought to Australia by Western countries, such as Kmart, Target, shops, shopping centres, etc will pull out of Australia we’ll see if you fucking white-trash Aussies will be still talking about how you are so great and how you little punk convicts dominate the world (maybe at Kangaroo hunting or imbreeding). You Aussies and Europeans complain about American movies so much that always Americans save the world. Well, once you useless people start doing something good I would not say a word. Not unless we are attacked by killer kangaroos from outer space the world will never look to Australians to save the world. (Heck, Australia still has never put a man into outer space while America has done so more than the rest of the world combined). You Aussies love to talk about how great you are. Well, the fact is that you Aussies have been around for just as long as America and haven’t accomplished fucking shit. America owes your ass. The whole world would still be fighting for breadcrumbs without the technology and inventions that have from Americans. Look around you, you fucking useless white trash Aussies. The shops, department stores, stock market, football, BBQs, cowboy hats, absolutely everything is thanks to Americans. What have you Aussies done for the world? Your just as low as those complaining whining techno-loving drug junkie Europeans that are to busy recently spreading bad typical stories about America to cover-up for their own incompetance while Americans are too busy already exploring other celestial objects in the solar system! You Aussies and European trash think you are in a good situation, look again. Your stores are 20 years behind American stores. You guys just started to discover the concept of window shopping while that was discovered a hundred years ago in America! The stores in Oz and Europe all look like shit and that is because the arrogant useless people of the world are way behind. The way they design stores in Oz and Europe would receive a lot of complaints from the American consumers because that was 10-20 years ago in the USA. Now American stores are so far advanced they are employing stunning interiors just to feed the human eye with marvel and joy. Nobody ever enjoys themselves so much in stores located outside N America as they do in American stores located in the USA. Don’t see any real good looking store interiors around the world outside N America. SO YOU AUSTRALIAN YOUTH AND WHITE TRASH WANT TO PREACH IN A CHURCH HATRED TOWARDS AMERICA AND WORLD DOMINATION START THINKING OF THE CONSEQUENCES!!!

    mIKE

    October 12, 2009 at 3:01 pm

  36. Well, then again when I think of it I guess you Aussies will never be any better as long as you’re still kissing the ass of the Queen in the foggy, gray, depressing land of skinhead soccer holligans and fish and chips. Of course, I’m fully aware that shortly many of the Planetshakers members will start attacking me (highly likely with typical immature verbal attacks like name-calling and frequent usage of words probably like “dick”) and that is alright because I will stand tall and strong and while I’m making money and making history and you’ll still be just secretly jealously watching and wondering how the hell it ever happened. You want a wake-up call, Americans are far more successful than any other group of people in history on the planet because they have a good mentality and clean, fresh way of thinking. They are natural leaders and that is how life is (and studies have shown this). Some have to be the leaders while others (like Planetshakers members) are the sheep and sheep get slaughtered. You know, the funny thing is how American-hating Europeans and Aussies like to ask Americans these typical question like “do you know anything about Aussie history?” just trying to make the American look bad, yet and Americans always get it right while you people don’t even know who is James Cook (what a disgrace). (First of all, why does it matter if an American knows anything about Australian history at all? Australia is irrelevant and is just an issolated island with no real influence on the world). Anyways, I think you people have this little false idea in your tiny brains that Americans are supposed to be stupid and don’t know anything. Well, the bottom line is look at how many of the greatest businesses, businessmen, scientists, etc are American. Business – almost 33% of the world’s richest companies are American. Billionaires – more than 50% are American. Technology – need I say more than 4 letters: N-A-S-A. Source: Fortune Global 500 (ever heard of it, of course not. You people are still learning the basics of business and just yesterday found-out what ‘globalization’ and ‘brand marketing’ means while this information comes natural to every American early in childhood – probably partly because they are exposed to a much more advanced society than say if you were born in Siberia where no one even heard of business terms). I’ll leave you arrogant and useless people of the world with one more thing. Stop trying to steal. I know it is in your past to steal since Australians were literally thieves and murderers sent away from Britain to that unwanted and almost entirely uninhabitable island, but stop trying to steal great accomplishments of others. Stop being a disease to human society by trying to destroy others and start contributing something positive. Stop using the word “we” when referring to the landing of an American man on the moon. Americans put man on the moon. The world only uses the word “we” to take credit for something they didn’t do a single thing for. It is just an example of insignificance and arrogant thinking. I observed the same with the Slavic countries of E Europe. Some tiny insignificant Slavic country like Serbia or Slovak Republic will say “we won” when the Russian hockey team wins a game because they are too insignificant to do anything themselves. Also, stop trying to claim that stores like Kmart and Target and restaurants like KFC and Domino’s are Australian! That is pathetic and very lame. The least you people could do is know a little about the places where you do your shopping and eating. They are American companies. Continue that attitude and I hope every American company leaves Australia in the dust (literally given what a land of nothing but dust and bush Australia is). Then we’ll see how great you people are.

    mIKE

    October 12, 2009 at 3:38 pm

  37. I just read Mike’s comment. Oh what irony. Blessed is he whose hope is in the Lord. Progress, progress, progress.

    Andrew Lacey

    September 4, 2010 at 4:14 pm

  38. lol. Yes, it was an epic rant.

    I remember now why I used to moderate comments 😉

    Planetshakers Insider

    September 27, 2010 at 11:35 pm

  39. And this I need to! I was looking for Google since An hour and was really depressed as I got just this post made me happy. I merely bookmarked your website when i is not going to prefer to waste time again on the internet.

    Hellen Mcelveen

    February 7, 2011 at 9:09 am

  40. Hi there. I’m leaving Planetshakers. They are bringing creflo dollar over. Word of faith is heresy. Google Justin peters ministry and watch his explanation of this. Word of faith nearly destroyed my life.

    Very upset christian

    December 17, 2013 at 4:08 pm


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