Planetshakers Insider

Musings on Life, the Christian Journey and being a part of Planetshakers City Church

Open Letter to ACC National Executive

with 28 comments

An articulate letter was forwarded to me today via email (planetshakersinsider [at] gmail dot com)

It was described as an open letter to the ACC National Executive [AOG Australia’s top leadership], and was attributed to young pentecostal worship leader Ben Manusama (of Manifest Youth) – If someone can find the original source, I’d appreciate it – I couldn’t find it myself.

It clearly articulates some key points that have also been raised about Planetshakers leadership on this blog, as well as the wider pentecostal leadership in Australia and worldwide elsewhere in the light of Mike Guglielmucci’s fall, as well as the fall of Todd Bentley.

To the members of the National Executive,

I’m writing to you in response to the events of the last week regarding the confession of Mike Guglielmucci. I write as a young person directly impacted by his actions and wish to present for discussion a number of issues it has raised within the community of young people in the ACC.

To begin with, my church was quite removed from Mike’s ministry – I had only met him for the first time when he spoke at our youth meeting a few weeks ago. I say this with the hope that you can see the objectivity of my observations as I had no emotional attachment to the man or his ministry.

As I’m sure you’re aware, everyone’s talking, everyone’s speculating, everyone’s processing and trying to come to terms with what has happened and what the consequences are.

I don’t presume to speak on behalf of anyone other than myself but after posting a respectful blog containing some of my initial observations, I’ve had quite an overwhelming response of people who have read it. Some enthusiastically agreeing, some confused, some still undecided. I would be lying if I didn’t tell you there are many profoundly affected young people and they’re not all directly connected to him or his ministry (as you might assume).

I have grown up in the Pentecostal movement with parents whose itinerant ministry saw me and my family visiting churches all over the nation. I’ve been able to observe the changes of culture within our own movement and our observations have always been grounded in our family’s core values and passion for the Body of Christ.

This now is my assessment of these recent events.

What Mike has done is catastrophic not only in the geographical reach of the scandal but also because it has struck at the foundation of much of the methodology of our movement.

The questions being asked are not only about how a man ‘falls from grace’ but people are asking what this says about ministry, the Holy Spirit, human character and the capacity for a regenerated man to commit such wickedness.

The actions and official statements made thus far by the ACC and the Guglielmucci family seem to be dealing with some of these issues although that will need to be an ongoing process (certainly in a church-by-church fashion).

My concern is that the conversation will only go so far – that the issues surrounding ‘the man’ (which must certainly be addressed) will be resolved but that there will be no engagement with the broader problem.

Is it too simplistic to view this as just another case of a man ‘falling from grace’? I think to leave it at that is not only simplistic but negligent.

A person like Mike Guglielmucci is not born but created.

I say this not to negate Mike’s responsibility or guilt for his actions but to draw our attention to how the culture of the contemporary Pentecostal church has allowed and accommodated for somebody like Mike to thrive.

WHAT IS THIS CULTURE?

One of the strengths of Pentecostalism has always been its ability to become culturally relevant to all peoples – and particularly young people. This is seen in our ever evolving forms of communication, media, music and the content and delivery of our message. These things are important when they are the natural side effect of being creative human beings in a changing world, however when they become the mechanism by which we build the church there are dangerous consequences.

What began as a move to bring the church out of the dark ages and into the realm of popular culture has had devastating side effects: Praise and worship has become a music industry (complete with it’s very own rock stars), preaching has become motivational speaking (with little expectation to know or engage with the text) and ministry has become a desirable and lucrative career choice.

Against this background, the value system of church seems to have changed.

I came across an article by an American minister named Dutch Sheets. I am unfamiliar with his ministry but his response to the events surrounding Todd Bentley seem all too appropriate to our situation.

The following is a quote from him:

“We, the leaders of the charismatic church, have built on hype, sensation, innovation, programs, personality and charisma. This has produced: shallowness; false movements; novice leaders— gifted but immature and untested; a deficient understanding of God’s word; the building of man-centered rather than kingdom- centered churches and ministries; competition rather than cooperation; humanistic, self-centered Christians who don’t understand sacrifice and commitment; Christians without discernment; superstar leaders; a perverted and powerless gospel; prayerless and anemic Christians; a replacement of the fear of the Lord with the fear of man; and a young generation that is cynical of it all.”

As a young person in our movement I honestly believe that this almost summarizes the state of our predicament.

I look around and see so many insecure church leaders who are too eager to jump on trends and exploit new talent and ideas as a way to keep up with the Joneses/Houstons.

It is within this environment that a talented, charismatic, gifted, articulate, charming, yet-untested, son of a well respected preacher managed to not only slip through the process of accountability but then exploited the system to get to the top.

Our movement that seems to have become so obsessed with a man’s talent, gifting and ability to draw a crowd was the perfect environment for such a man to exploit. No matter what Mike’s motivations, regardless of the driving force behind his actions (whether he was psychologically sound or not), he has demonstrated that there is a ladder to be climbed and it can be done apparently with no help from the Holy Spirit.

Worse still, not only did he make a complete mockery of Pentecostal rhetoric but he was ultimately endorsed by the leaders of our denomination – which is you guys.

Even at the end there were churches (including my own) who were unsure about his ministry but finally accepted based on the endorsement from the national executive.

QUESTIONS.

In closing there are some burning questions and challenges I would like to put forward.

1) For a denomination that is supposed to be led by the Holy Spirit instantly one asks where was the discernment of our leaders? Is it too much to expect that our spiritual fathers and shepherds will be led by the Spirit to protect their flock? Granted everyone’s saying that he hid this from his own wife and family but surely God would try to forewarn and thus prevent such a catastrophic deception that has ruined so many lives.

2) What system of accountability allows such a man to get so far? Amidst the excitement over his ministry and his ability to draw a crowd – was there anybody in his life to challenge his behaviour? And if so, if someone actually knew even in part about his struggles, why were measures not taken to limit his reach of influence until those struggles were resolved? Surely some of the reports coming out about his methods as youth pastor at Planetshakers City Church should have raised a red flag. Was everyone too quick to celebrate his role in growing the church, and too hesitant to question or check a rising star?

3) Who takes responsibility? In the official statements released so far – no one has taken ownership. Words like ‘illness’ and ‘professional help’ deflect attention from the real underlying cultural problems and the role played by leadership in allowing this to happen. What’s to prevent another Mike Guglielmucci from happening?
It just seems like it would be too easy for somebody else to come through and exploit it all over again.

I don’t think it’s enough for our leaders to say they don’t condone what has been done – this whilst separating themselves from ‘the man’ does not acknowledge their role in the greater problem. Nor is it enough for them to say they had no idea what was going on – that they didn’t know. It was your job to know (surely even just on a practical level regardless of your theology).

Just as a father is responsible for what happens to his kids, aren’t you in some way responsible for what happens to our generation?

The statement from Dutch Sheets in regard to the Lakeland scandal is, I feel, an inspiring example of leadership being transparent and taking responsibility (www.dutchsheets.org).

My concern is that the next few weeks will be about damage control and no discussion or admission of the greater underlying issues.

We don’t expect for you guys to be perfect but we expect honesty and openness. Perhaps if our leaders were willing to be transparent about their weaknesses, we would be less inclined to hide ours.

4) What are you going to do to change it?

__________
There’s a multitude of young people looking to you now. We’re hurt, confused, bleeding and angry.

You’ve spoken to us at meetings, conferences, youth alive retreats and through DVDs. Speak now.

You’re always so quick to let us know you’re leading us.

So lead.

I agree wholeheartedly with Ben Manusama’s sentiments.

While I’ve said previously that I believe Manifest had their heart in the right place, I would encourage Ben Manusama and others at Manifest to also reflect on their actions placing Mike Guglielmucci on stage when they did. Perhaps they were complicit of some of the same failings?

However, I also believe that the questions Ben Manusama asks are apt, and deserve to be answered – by the AOG National Executive, Planetshakers, Hillsong and even Manifest:

1) What happened to the discernment of leaders?
2) How did the lie slip through any accountability, and get so far?
3) Who will stand up and take responsibility?
4) What will happen to ensure this doesn’t happen again?

All reasonable and fair-minded questions.

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28 Responses

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  1. Interesting that while Ben Manusama decries the state of things pertaining to the worship industry and the creation of Christian worship stars he’s quite happy to try and become one himself. He tried out for Australian Idol in 2003.

    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2435221/

    Beavis

    October 9, 2008 at 7:15 am

  2. I like what he had to say though. Very well thought out and bang on the money.

    Beavis

    October 9, 2008 at 7:16 am

  3. I believe he’s also in secular and non-secular bands too, and it’s his musical performances that pay his rent (although someone who knows him personally might be able to confirm this).

    I agree what he has to say too. As you said: “I like what he had to say though. Very well thought out and bang on the money.”

    Planetshakers Insider

    October 9, 2008 at 10:35 am

  4. does anyone actually know him? that Aus Idol thing is from 2003, that’s pretty old. I’d be pretty interested to know how/if his perspective has changed since that time.
    i do like what he says, and the questions he raises. Most of all I like that he wrote TO the acc executive instead of just ABOUT them.

    Interested

    October 9, 2008 at 12:18 pm

  5. Interesting comments and you can easily attribute to the pentecostal movement. Actually, any movement of God.

    It does not say in the bible that God will out all truth in our timing nor does it confess to giving leaders the ability to discern anything and everything.

    Our walk of faith is like the road way system. God wants us to be on the freeway, getting from point A to point B his way, the most direct and uncomplicated way. Sometimes he allows us to detour onto secondary roads to test our willingness to get back on his path and other times we choose to go onto these roads. How far we move away from God’s path is not his choice, but ours. But he will not let us detour forever. He will try to straighten us up again and again. But if we are stubborn, or don’t have the strength, he will create a fork in the road, by revealing who we really are, and that is when our choice our decisions are given the greatest test.

    Mike strayed from his path, but God let him continue driving, even amongst other drivers until God’s subtle detours weren’t enough, there was no will to change or strength to do it, so God created the fork. Mike decided to come clean and not run.

    The fact that no Church “discerned” this is not surprising. If it doesn’t suite his divine plan, then God won’t reveal it to anyone. He did however give certain members of leadership direction away from this influence without revealing the truth.

    Now personally, I can see how people can get caught up in celebrity status or praising those who sing or preach. But then again do we blame the Church, the leadership or the person who falls? God doesn’t always test us with illness, or money issues or situations to break us, sometimes he might use our emotional connection to someone, the way we feel when on stage, the way the people look at us when we speak to them, to test our character.

    Our churches grow because God moves. He doesn’t in the small groups and the larger church, that is fact. What happens on a Sunday is only part of a weekly journey yet it is always criticised and held up as the be all and end all of a Church’s existence.

    If we read the word, then the answers to all the questions raised can be answered and revealed. If you want people to stop getting wrapped up in the music, tell them to open their bibles. When they do this, the music makes more sense and can be cherished even further.

    Nathan

    October 9, 2008 at 6:21 pm

  6. “Now personally, I can see how people can get caught up in celebrity status or praising those who sing or preach. But then again do we blame the Church, the leadership or the person who falls?”

    Could you explain the connection between celebrity and the fallen leader here? On first read, it sounded like the person to blame was the fallen celebrity themself.

    “Our churches grow because God moves. He doesn’t in the small groups and the larger church, that is fact. What happens on a Sunday is only part of a weekly journey yet it is always criticised and held up as the be all and end all of a Church’s existence.”

    I agree.

    In fact, where Planetshakers lets itself down isn’t on Sunday (usually) – it’s the remaining 6 days of the week, and in Urban Life Groups.

    Planetshakers needs to facilitate God’s weekly work, but instead of strengthening ULG leaders, recruiting equipping Pastors and focusing on the quality of relationships people have with Christ, the key focus is on the quantity of people attending on Sunday.

    It’s where Russell’s skills are – but it means a lot of Christians who may not be as strong in their faith as you or I get left behind – surely you’ve seen this yourself – if not, go talk to the quiet people at Church this Sunday, not the people bouncing in the aisles – find out when was the last time their Urban Life Group leader spoke to them. What I’ve found is that Planetshakers will focus on the few hundred at the top, and leave the few thousand at the bottom behind.

    “If we read the word, then the answers to all the questions raised can be answered and revealed. If you want people to stop getting wrapped up in the music, tell them to open their bibles. When they do this, the music makes more sense and can be cherished even further.”

    I couldn’t agree more.

    And this is why ULG leaders need to be equipped to train properly within Small Groups – particularly to newer and younger Christians.

    I’m glad we’re both on the same page. 🙂

    PSI

    Planetshakers Insider

    October 9, 2008 at 11:16 pm

  7. I like what the guy has to say. He has done it in a very respectful manner and has been very honest. He is speaking the truth in love. His call for the leaders to actually lead is right on. Now more than ever they need to step up and deal with this (not just the Mike issue) or face the consequences of being at the helm while a generation turns its back on the church as we know it.

    It’s hard not to see the contemporary church as a whore. Even harder to think that by saying that I am likening Christ’s bride to a hooker. The amazing thing about God though, is that he loves the worst of the worst. Hosea still married Gomer on God’s say so. In all of this I know that but for the grace of God I would be going the same way.

    Alias

    October 10, 2008 at 9:38 am

  8. Ben didn’t try out for australian idol to become a christian celebrity, he was 19, had a gift and tried to pursue it. maybe you should even hear the views he has about it now and the testimony that emerged as a result of his idol experience (i heard his sermon about it once in bendigo)…but nice twist of the past beavis…lest we forget that the pursuit of of a career (even if it includes fame) is OK as long as the motivation is not fame but the enjoyment of what they’re doing. noble causes aside…is it really that bad for a christian to be a celebrity? no. but only when that celebrity culture becomes a priority in the body of Christ.

    and i think you should also probably read the part in the letter that talks about manifest’s reason for finally getting mike to speak there…and maybe even the part before which says how reluctant they always had been until the national executive fully endorsed his ministry…

    jan

    October 10, 2008 at 4:09 pm

  9. I resigned my own membership with a Church closely aligned to Hillsong after fair questions I asked regarding the assertions made in the BRW’s article “God’s Millionaires: (June 2005) would not be answered adequately by the Senior Pastor – and financials not provided.

    After much research, (I am a Business Analyst) by profession, I have concluded that these organisations are family owned Businesses – rather than Churches that:

    1) Claim “..the books are open” yet detailed financials of all related entities are not provided upon request.

    2) Manipulatively promote the teaching on ‘tithing’ which does not stand up to accepted principles of biblical interpretation.

    3) Facilitate a ‘networked speaking circuit’ where these Senior Pastors pay each other large sums of money to speak at each others Churches and Conferences into tax-free ‘ministry’ entities that they control.

    4) Are autocratically controlled by the Senior Pastor and his appointed Board – allowing these Churches to become ˜inherited family owned businesses (refer to the Articles of Incorporation and you will see what I mean). Many megachurches are passed down including Paradise SA, Riverview Perth etc.)

    5) Cover up contradictions such as Brian Houston’s “on the record” (“Lords Profits” SMH 2003) statement that “he makes money as a property developer” and later “(He) has never been a property developer” (Letter to Editor, BRW/Australin Story 2005).

    I urge all “Spiritual consumers” to be astute and heed the words of St Jerome (345-420 a.d. ) “Avoid, as you would the plague, a clergyman who is also a man of business.”

    lionfiish

    October 11, 2008 at 12:31 pm

  10. I am theoriginalmattyc and I approve this message!

    Ben Manusama’s comments are bang on the money though. They’re very well thought out and extremely articulate.

    But that said, as the old cliche goes “it opens up a whole new can of worms”. So lets open this can up and see what worms come out.

    Ben said himself that his own ministry was unsure of Michael Guglielmucci but still went ahead and booked him anyway and put him on their own stage after reassurances from Head Office. Isn’t this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? He’s criticising the ACC and Pentecostal leaders for not using discernment in their dealings with Michael Guglielmucci but his very own ministry appears to be guilty of that same failing.

    Next worm: Ben seems to be insinuating that there’s more to this scandal than we know. Remember that Manifest’s doubts about Mike would have happened some months before everything came out. When you take into account that they only have four youth meetings a year according to their website; they would have to have booked him well before they advertised the meeting.

    So what was it that they were unsure about that lead them to the point of asking the ACC whether having Mike speak to their youth was an okay thing to do? People don’t question the integrity of another person unless they believe they have evidence of one form or another to assert that somebody’s integrity has been comprised.

    It could have been something they witnessed with their own eyes or something they heard on the grapevine, either way it appears that they know something that we don’t. It just happens that when people hold knowledge that is in the public interest and they fail (deliberately or otherwise) to disclose it they are said to be covering it up.

    Now I’m open to other people’s interpretation and open to correction but it looks to me there’s a cover up going on where Michael Guglielmucci is concerned. People other than those associated with Planetshakers and Hillsong know more about Mike and aren’t saying it in order to make sure the spotlight isn’t shone on them and their activities scrutinised.

    Another worm: Ben also quoted Dutch Sheets in regards to the Todd Bentley scandal that broke out around the same time but has its roots going right back to an inappropriate relationship between Todd and a staffer in 2003. The same thing happened a second time and when it occured a third time in 2008, Todd was exposed, his position as Freshfire Ministries was terminated and it appears he’s heading for splitsville with his wife Shonna. I just wanted to give you guys a little background info in case you weren’t following that story.

    My point though is that Ben quoted Dutch Sheets which was an honourable thing to do, however he should have gone further and quoted Dutch Sheets where he said he “repented” from his dealings with Todd Bentley, in particular not discerning Todd was in error in his walk with God and for publicly lifting him up in the way he did.

    If the ACC, Planetshakers and Hillsong all repented of Michael Guglielmucci, their errors in not discerning his actions and publicly asked for forgiveness for all the hurt they caused through their action and inaction it would go a long long way to healing many hearts that have been wounded because of this whole scandal.

    theoriginalmattyc

    October 11, 2008 at 4:08 pm

  11. agree, and well highlighted,but the problem is that being human we always equate success to size,fame and reputation.Pastors of little churches listen to pastors of big churches as if they have the answer to their problems, never realising that both are fully equipped gifts from Jesus to His church,and that neither is superior to the other, but are perfect for their respective ministry. It is when the big boys learn to put the pastor of a small church on stage at their megaconferences that pastors have realised tthe truth..that each and everyone is answerable to Jesus only,personally for their secrect and public conduct,and the acceptability of that conduct is not reflected by the acceptance of people who do not know them, but by people who would die for them.The true success of a leader is not that they are held up as idols,but that their own flocks know the sacrifices the pastor has paid to keep them well fed and safe,and that his weaknesses are evident to all.The trust that God has for a man, is reflected also in the degree of miraculous power He has in life, and in the manner of his death..like Moses, Elijah and Jesus. How many of these superstars would be willing to step in harm;s way for their flocks, when they have to employ body guards to protect them. The true pastor is the body guard of his flock, the real food for his flock, the real drink for his flock..just like Jesus.He does not write a book to sell it to his flock to finance his ministry , he write it to give it to his flock that they may be greater than him.For all the faults of the system, there can be only one perfect answer..that which the Father commanded..”Listen to HIm’Math17:5. If every pastor was committed to raising up his flock to be experts in practicing the words of Jesus they have heard, they would be pleasantly surprised with the results, and find , that their sheep would never need to graze in other paddocks. Then the whole system that allows superstars to arise through book sales, megaconferences etc ,etc would never exist ,could never exist because no one would be buying, no one would be attending, because everyone would be too busy with what they have to do in their own church..causing the blind to see, the lame to walk, the deaf to hear etc. The existence of these superstars is in part due to the truth that we did not believe Jesus when He said..it was to the little flock that the Father is pleased to give to KIngdom..not to the megaflock. Dr.Ed,a footstool of Jesus

    edmond kwan

    October 12, 2008 at 10:20 am

  12. Your honest and well-stated critical thinking of this whole mess is refreshing. I think any person part of the Pentecostal rockstar era has had similar thoughts – especially those of us who were part of the “elite” circle, told we had a ‘special’ anointing. I’m in the States, where unfortunately these scandals keep coming right after the next. Unfortunately, I don’t have any answers or even feel optimistic that this will be the last without some major fundamental changes.

    Melissa

    October 13, 2008 at 7:13 am

  13. Can anyone fill me on the latest news that Danny Guglielmucci has been asked to step down? Any one else heard?

    Tomm

    October 14, 2008 at 3:12 pm

  14. Danny has stepped down voluntarily for 3 months.

    Beavis

    October 14, 2008 at 8:01 pm

  15. I think it’s reasonable to suggest that perhaps God stayed deliberately quiet before Mike’s situation came to a head – in other words didn’t warn the leadership of churches like Hillsong, Manifest, and others who put Mike on their “platform” in good faith – for a higher purpose. It may be that He wanted these other churches to be touched by the situation so that when the truth came about, they couldn’t take the “i told you so” stance. It would have been easy for Hillsong, or at least Manifest who it seems did have previous reservations about Mike’s ministry, to allow a little bit (or a lot!) of self righteousness and pride to creep in when he fell, believing that they had ‘been right all along’ in not getting involved in his ministry. I find it interesting that it was only a short time before the truth was exposed that the Hillsong dvd came out featuring Mike and his so called testimony and that Manifest had him minister at their event. Neither church can we say ‘we told you so’. All are implicated in the fall.

    Having been to a few Manifest events and seen their ministry, I feel sure that no speaker would be invited to minister there without much prayer and consideration. I hope that if they had still been “unsure about his ministry” before inviting him, they wouldn’t have actually invited him. But I can only speculate. Maybe they really did just lack discernment. Or maybe it was all part of God’s plan.

    Interested

    October 16, 2008 at 9:44 am

  16. ps that was a reply to theoriginalmattyc.

    Interested

    October 16, 2008 at 9:56 am

  17. Let’s not waste time pointing fingers and shouting about what has happened, the smart thing would be to look for the way forward and deal with it….There’s no use crying over spilt milk, mop it up and move on.

    Ngozi

    October 17, 2008 at 1:53 pm

  18. First, nobody is innocent. Like has been said before let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I am not condoning what Mike did but if Jesus refused to convict an adultress who am I to convict Mike? The Bible says that if you confess your sins God is faithful and jut to forgive and cleanse from all unrighteousness…..it din’t specify any sins. There is no big or little sin…..I agree that what he did was sick and that he needs serious help. The most important thing is that he confessed to God and THAT to God is the most important thing……..it is not your sin that matters it is your heart, your decision to confess and not look back. If not then David would certainly have been the worst of them!

    Second…To the Symptoms Mike claims he has…..Mike forgot that God says that “Death and Life are in the power of the tongue…..” He used his tongue to speak sickness into his life and it is manifesting because the Kingdom of heaven operates on principles…Be not deceived, God is not mocked, whatsoever a man sows that he will surely reap. SO Mike has confessed and come clean and God has forgiven him but he still has to face the consequences of his actions because he, with his own lips sowed the seed of cancer into his life and I won’t be surprised to hear that the results of his tests show some kind of cancer because he sowed it into his life.

    MIKE GOD HAS FORGIVEN YOU but HE CANNOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF, GOD VALUES HIS WORD ABOVE HIMSELF…….YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR WORDS AND ACTIONS. LIVE A CLEAN LIFE AND BECOME A LEADER AND NOT A SIGNPOST. I APPLAUD FOR HEEDING THE CONVICTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND CONFESSING but THE BATTLE HAS ONLY JUST BEGUN. ASK GOD FOR GRACE…..HIS GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR YOU FOR HIS STRENGTH IS MADE MANIFEST IN YOUR WEAKNESS.

    Ngozi

    October 17, 2008 at 1:54 pm

  19. By the way, the song was not fake…..GOD WILL USE ANYONE AND ANYTHING TO PASS HIS MESSAGE ACROSS. God is not in the business of creating saints he is in the business of restoration. Check the Bible you don’t hear God saying we are all perfect you see tons of scripturethat says All things are new IN CHRIST! I.e all have sinned ain’t no-one is perfect….but through Christ we are made whole. God says come I will wash your sins that are scarlet till they be white as snow. Cos he knows we will sin…i dint say become a perpetual sinner but because you or Mike has sinned does not make it the end of the road for him or anyone. The song is about Jesus, it’s not who sang it that matters but what it means to YOU! Salvation is personal. In the end God will rather use a Michael Guglielmucci who has been there and knows what it feels like to reach out to his people than anyone else who has had a clean life with no skeleton in his cupboard. WHY? you may ask. Simple, because he will understand better how to reach out to people who are going through this same thing………look at people like Joyce Meyer and Juanita Bynum (not exactly the same context but I hope you get the point). BUt of course like them he first of all needs most of all not psychological or medical but SPIRITUAL HELP because quote me anywhere: if GOD does not help him….. NOBODY CAN. Like it or not.

    God told prophet Samuel that man looks at the outward appearance but Him (God) looks at the heart so with all the grammar we are speaking God has looked at Mike’s heart and if he has decided to forgive him there is nothing on earth and even in Heaven that any of us can do to change it. It is not what has happened that matters but Mike’s heart. Our Past belongs to us but HISTORY is His (God’s) Story concerning us.

    John 8:32 “Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free…..” read on to v34 whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin…..we are all servants of sin what differentiates is our knowledge of the truth that Jesus sets us free If Mike has come to this saving knowledge then he is in a better place than a lot of people cos he has confessed. HE STILL NEEDS HELP at least he knows that. v35 if he really confesses and changes he becomes a son, u who haven’t confessed who in your closet sin but point fingers in open are a servant….I’d much rather be a son than a servant. V36 like I said before if GOD forgives him he is free indeed and to God that is what matters.

    John 8v11, Jesus asked the adultress where are your accusers? has no-one condemned thee? She said NO, and our Lord Jesus who has the biggest right of all to d so said “NEITHER DO I. Go and sin no more” What we should be saying to Mike is not “it’s a shock, I am ashamed…….”that’s all pointless at this stage, what should be said is “Ask God for forgiveness and Go and Sin no more.” In JOHN 8v15, Jesus said “Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.” So I ask you what gives you the right to pass Judgement on Mike Guglielmucci? I know him not in fact I stmbled upon this story while trying to find out about Hillsong and that was the first time I ever heard the name MG. But let him who thinks he stands TAKE HEED LEST HE FALL.

    And I can write on and on but for now I will stop here and say this short prayer….GOD TEACH YOUR PEOPLE THAT THEY MAY KNOW THE TRUTH AND BE STRENGTHENED IN YOU! AND KEEP YOUR PEOPLE FIRMLY ROOTED IN YOU AND UNSHAKEABLE, ABOUNDING IN STEADFAST LOVE, IN JESUS NAME, AMEN. (Please Read the whole of John 8 ) my final word: JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED

    HEAVEN AND EARTH (including MG) WILL PASS AWAY BUT NOTA DROP NOR AN IOTA OF GOD’S WORD WILL PASS AWAY……that is the underlying truth. In all of this remember that man may disappoint or fail but God never fails……..have this fav song that says
    Jesus Never Fails(2x)
    The man of the world may let you down
    But Jesus never fails

    Ngozi

    October 17, 2008 at 1:58 pm

  20. TO ADMINISTRATOR: pls delete this post and ma post at 1.57, the one before the one before this, thanx, its a repetition.

    Ngozi

    October 17, 2008 at 2:03 pm

  21. [ERRATUM]
    Upon contemplation of things, I would say this in utmost grace and truth –

    Where teaching, preaching, worshipping, telling stories, testifying, signs and wonders and ALL OTHER spiritual expressions ARE NOT GOD-CENTERED, JESUS-CENTERED, GOSPEL-CENTERED, GRACE and TRUTH-centered, then it is where man gets what is supposedly due to God and all form of evil and lies can hide.

    Then, only GOD himself exposed it, and HE still gets the glory out of it, proving that nothing in man or nothing in this universe can be dependable – ONLY GOD HIMSELF.

    Let’s all check our theology if it’s God-centered or form of work-performance-based salvation. From salvation to faith to glory – IT’S ALL COMING FROM GOD, from the throne of grace and mercy.

    There is a PURSUIT here. Pursuit of LIVING THEOLOGY, HIS WORDS to become ALIVE! God is worthy of our pursuits of knowing Him!

    What we know about God without fruit of changed lives and heart affections falls on the same category of a form of unregenerate heart or life.

    For whatever happened to Ted Haggard now God started a tremendous grace-centered revival in NewLife Church Colorado, for Michael Guglielmucci of Planetshakers, we know the reason behind…all possible goes back to us as fallen man and ALL GLORY STILL BELONGS TO GOD.

    Oh man, tell me the loudest song you can sing and the best works you can do, they will still all fall as rags, BUT I WILL TELL YOU WHAT GOD CAN DO TO YOU, unless the grace of God becomes truth in ourlives then all our works, whether singing or doing, it all becomes worthy of Him

    All that we do are means, they are not the end. ALL THE GLORY BE FOR GOD!
    Let’s all be in anything of our expressions to be God-centered – where God is most glorified in us while we are most satisfied in Him!

    IS GOD OUR TREASURE?

    Don
    Spreaders Philippines
    gospel.webmo.org

    Don

    October 19, 2008 at 1:09 pm

  22. [FINAL ERRATUM]
    Upon contemplation of things, I would say this in utmost grace and truth –

    Where teaching, preaching, worshipping, telling stories, testifying, signs and wonders and ALL OTHER spiritual expressions ARE NOT GOD-CENTERED, JESUS-CENTERED, GOSPEL-CENTERED, GRACE and TRUTH-centered, then it is where man gets what is supposedly due to God and all form of evil and lies can hide.

    Then, only GOD himself exposed it, and HE still gets the glory out of it, proving that nothing in man or nothing in this universe can be dependable – ONLY GOD HIMSELF.

    Let’s all check our theology if it’s God-centered or form of work-performance-based salvation. From salvation to faith to glory – IT’S ALL COMING FROM GOD, from the throne of grace and mercy.

    There is a PURSUIT here. Pursuit of LIVING THEOLOGY, HIS WORDS to become ALIVE! God is worthy of our pursuits of knowing Him!

    What we know about God without fruit of changed lives and heart affections falls on the same category of a form of unregenerate heart or life.

    For whatever happened to Ted Haggard now God started a tremendous grace-centered revival in NewLife Church Colorado, for Michael Guglielmucci of Planetshakers, we may know the reason behind…all possible shame goes back to us as fallen man but ALL GLORY STILL BELONGS TO GOD.

    Oh man, tell me the loudest song you can sing and the best works you can do, they will still all fall as rags, BUT I WILL TELL YOU WHAT GOD CAN DO TO YOU, unless the grace of God becomes truth in ourlives then all our works, whether singing or doing, it all becomes worthy of Him

    All that we do are means, they are not the end. ALL THE GLORY BE FOR GOD!
    Let’s all be in anything of our expressions to be God-centered – where God is most glorified in us while we are most satisfied in Him!

    IS GOD OUR TREASURE?

    Don
    Spreaders Philippines
    gospel.webmo.org

    Don

    October 19, 2008 at 1:10 pm

  23. Today (October 21st) was the funeral of a 15 year old girl at an ACC Church on the Gold Coast who died of leukemia. As with all the other ACC churches the issues involving Mike Gugg were not addressed by leadership. More than ever there are a lot of hurting youth in ACC churches.

    Rhonda Godfrey

    October 21, 2008 at 4:56 pm

  24. I think you can trace a lot of this back to false doctrine – the pure word of God will keep christians on the straight and narrow path. If people had a love for scripture Todd Bentely and Co. would never have made it so far. The church has invited the world into it’s pulpits and the congregation – there is little difference between the bands in church and that of the world these days – merely throwing in some christian lyrics does not make the worship any more powerful or theologically correct. In this regard I agree with Mr Manusama – but will my agreeing with him change anything? – not if people continue to see ministry as a means to make money or as a career. We have many hirelings in the pulpit today, many who preach money , and that God wants you to be rich. We should all look more closely at what our poorest brethren are doing in China, Burma, Vietnam, Pakistan and the eastern european states and hang our heads in shame that we don’t aspire to the same level of holiness, zeal and dedication to the word of God and his ways as they.

    Eric

    July 10, 2009 at 1:37 pm

  25. Amen Eric!

    Mice

    November 30, 2009 at 5:28 pm

  26. Does anyone know if the AOG Executive actually responded to this published email and if so what the response was?

    Peter

    December 23, 2010 at 1:33 pm

  27. @lionfish- my experience of the “business” of Planetshakers is in line with your analysis. there are a lot of people out there getting rich off the “gospel” (not only at Planetshakers). whether it’s the true gospel or not is another discussion altogether but they certainly are getting rich. personally i don’t believe anyone should pay to receive teaching of the Bible, whether that be at a live meeting/event, in audio/video format or in a book. reminds me of biblical references about “peddling the word”.

    thnkfryrslf

    January 25, 2011 at 1:24 am

  28. by the way PSI, you currently rank on page 6 when typing “Planetshakers” into google (just in case you were interested to know). of course Planetshakers’ own pages take up most of the results on the first page- brilliant marketing once again. here’s a link to an interesting article from The Age in 2009 that made it to page 3 on google

    http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/shaken-but-not-stirred-by-stadiumrock-spirituality-20090728-e02k.html

    thnkfryrslf

    January 25, 2011 at 1:35 am


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